tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post2525884078857912417..comments2022-12-13T14:45:12.233+00:00Comments on Martin Goodall's Planning Law Blog: Permitted Development within the Curtilage of a Listed Building or in a Conservation AreaMartin H Goodallhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07079479984296674469noreply@blogger.comBlogger76125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-48435433728516691462021-06-29T10:53:19.757+01:002021-06-29T10:53:19.757+01:00Within the curtilage of a listed building, free-st...Within the curtilage of a listed building, free-standing outbuildings or other structures cannot be erected as permitted development under Class E in Part 1 of the Second Schedule to the GPDO. They would require planning permission (but not Listed Building Consent, assuming that they are not attached to any part of the listed structure).<br /><br />The 4-year rule applies to an existing unauthorised outbuilding, even where erected within the curtilage of a listed building. So it will be immune from enforcement, provided that it can be shown (on the balance of probability) that it was substantially completed more than four years ago. Assuming that the erection of the wooden workshop is now lawful, it can be used for any ancillary or incidental domestic purpose, even as additional sleeping accommodation, <i>provided it is not used as a separate dwelling</i>. [Note, however, the requirement to comply with the Building Regulations if changing the use of the outbuilding in this way.]<br />(This contrasts with the position where an outbuilding is erected as PD under Class E in Part 1, which limits its initial use to purely ancillary or incidental purposes, which would not include primary residential purposes, such as sleeping accommodation.)<br /><br />These remarks are, of course, subject to the disclaimer that applies to all comments on this blog. They must not therefore be treated as legal advice. In situations of this sort, undisclosed facts can fundamentally change the legal position that might otherwise obtain.<br />Martin H Goodallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07079479984296674469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-85466169215101131752021-06-27T10:14:58.556+01:002021-06-27T10:14:58.556+01:00I am looking at purchasing a grade II listed prope...I am looking at purchasing a grade II listed property which also has one boundary that is a listed wall of a neighbouring property. Would I require planning permission (but not listed building consent) for a wooden mobile home style unit to provide ancillary accommodation for my children. The other option is to enlarge and convert an existing wooden workshop that is on the site. I cannot find any details on any applications having been made for the existing wooden workshop so assume that this was erected many years ago and therefore now has permission to remain? Would there be restrictions on the size of the building due to the listed building? The property is in a conservation area and national park!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-1546713473591778322020-09-25T11:05:42.737+01:002020-09-25T11:05:42.737+01:00As Mr Esprit suspects, this is really a matter for...As Mr Esprit suspects, this is really a matter for the LPA’s planning judgement. Enforcement (including listed building enforcement) is always a matter of discretion, having regard to the public interest and all other material considerations.<br /><br />One can make an enforcement complaint to the council, which would at least prompt them to investigate the matter, to see whether there has in truth been any breach of listed building control; but, in the circumstances, I don’t hold out too much hope that this will lead to any enforcement action being taken, nor do I suggest that it ought to in this case.<br />Martin H Goodallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07079479984296674469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-66641044401871820092020-09-24T15:00:56.897+01:002020-09-24T15:00:56.897+01:00Thank You for your reply Martin.
Same scenario: th...Thank You for your reply Martin.<br />Same scenario: the building to which the access runs to is within the curtilage when listed, and existed prior 1948 (in fact was built in the early 1800s). In the mid 1990s the building and a small section of land was sold and the building was converted to a dwelling, listed building consent was applied for and obtained. Since then a number of alterations have taken place with out LB permission or standard planning permission, i.e original scheme allowed for parking of vehicles but this has been removed for garden space, garden wall built without LB consent (built up to the building in question), original timber windows removed for modern upvc, and additional lean to building built. Recently the Local Authority has questioned if the building is listed, but clearly LA considered it was in 1990s as conversion was approved. Has anything changed in the last 25 years that would remove or dilute the listing protection? or if certain changes are made after a period of time are they deemed to be acceptable? Or is this a matter that LA not wishing to enforce planning law because it is not in the public interest? regards Mr Esprit.<br /> Mr Esprithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14953495015659503257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-85399092617794404122020-09-24T09:46:08.723+01:002020-09-24T09:46:08.723+01:00This is purely a property issue, not a planning qu...This is purely a property issue, not a planning question.<br /><br />Listed Building Consent is not required for this or any other development within the curtilage of a listed building, provided that the development is not attached to the fabric of the listed building itself (or of a pre-1948 structure within the curtilage).<br /><br />[However, planning permission is required for any new outbuilding or other structure to be erected within the curtilage, because permitted development under Class E of Part 1 is precluded by the fact of listing; but merely creating a right of way, especially by prescription (i.e. longstanding use) does not require planning permission.]<br />Martin H Goodallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07079479984296674469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-29498115954018525282020-09-24T09:28:33.779+01:002020-09-24T09:28:33.779+01:00Dear Martin
Fantastic site and source of informati...Dear Martin<br />Fantastic site and source of information.<br />I own a grade 2 property. My neighbours have applied to the land registry for a prescriptive right of way across my land. Given that they also have a right of way which does confirm to planning conditions, would they need listed buildings for the prescribed route, as it is detrimental to the setting of the building? Cheers Mr EspritMr Esprithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14953495015659503257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-83612370834704816002020-09-14T12:20:42.679+01:002020-09-14T12:20:42.679+01:00I take the view, in light of judicial authority on...I take the view, in light of judicial authority on structures that might previously have been considered ‘portable’ or ‘movable’, that the stationing of a shipping container on land would probably amount to a building operation, and would therefore be development within the meaning of section 55 of the 1990 Act.<br /><br />Such development within the curtilage of a listed building would <i>not</i> be permitted development under Class E in Part 1 of the Second Schedule to the GPDO. Outside the domestic curtilage it would not be PD under Part 1 in any event, and so it would appear that (in either case) planning permission would be required for such a development.<br /><br />The ‘setting’ of a listed building is relevant only in respect of a planning application (but not in respect of permitted development). The LPA is required by section 66 of the Listed Buildings Act, when considering whether to grant planning permission for development which affects a listed building or its setting, to have special regard to the desirability of preserving the building or its setting or any features of special architectural or historic interest which it possesses.<br /><br />[However, Listed Building Consent as such is not required for a free-standing structure within the curtilage of a listed building.]Martin H Goodallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07079479984296674469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-7453939290074644462020-09-13T11:53:03.007+01:002020-09-13T11:53:03.007+01:00Having read the above in relation to permitted dev...Having read the above in relation to permitted development, it raises in my mind the question as to whether there are any planning controls in relation to the siting of a shipping container (with mains electricity feed) a) within the curtilage and b) outside the curtilage but within the setting (visible from garden) of a listed building. Would planning consent be required in such cases or can it be done without reference to such controls?MJSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-33909981991119186012018-03-06T12:15:44.386+00:002018-03-06T12:15:44.386+00:00Hi Catherine
I applied for planning first and was ...Hi Catherine<br />I applied for planning first and was declined permission based on it being on green belt land and also affecting the surroundings of a listed building.<br />Then i changed tack and went for permitted development (not sure if allowed for 2 storey- you'll need to check) and this is when my LA said that my house was 'curtilage listed.' <br />Finally after a year of battling I managed to prove that my property WAS NOT BUILT until after 1948 and so could not be 'curtilage listed.'<br />Do you know when yours was built? <br />LaurenAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03070064031693468323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-76314965593130645002018-03-06T12:15:22.376+00:002018-03-06T12:15:22.376+00:00The original blog post above sought to explain the...The original blog post above sought to explain the position (under the previous version of the GPDO). An alteration or extension to a listed building may (subject to limitations and conditions) be permitted development under Part 1, Class A, but in most cases it will also require Listed Building Consent. The erection of a free-standing building within the curtilage of a listed building is excluded from permitted development under Part 1, Class E (see paragraph E.1(g) in the 2015 Order), and so will require planning permission (but will not require listed building consent, provided it is not physically attached to the listed building or to any boundary wall of its curtilage, or to any other building within the curtilage that was there before 1 July 1948).<br /><br />The question always arises as to whether a building near a listed building really was within its curtilage at the time when it was first listed. (See other posts in the blog on that topic.) But if it was, then (as mentioned above), it would seem that permitted development under Part 1, Class E is excluded. However, this is a question that would need proper legal advice following a detailed examination of all the relevant facts in this case. So the remarks above cannot be taken as legal advice and must not be relied upon as such.Martin H Goodallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07079479984296674469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-505845544938733372018-02-20T14:18:48.235+00:002018-02-20T14:18:48.235+00:00Hello,
This is a great site with loads of info an...Hello,<br /><br />This is a great site with loads of info and I think I have gained the answer to my question but just would like to run it past some of your again. If you want to do works which amount a ground and first floor extension on a property which is within the curtilage of a listed building, but that is a now a separate dwelling in it's own right, you would need to apply for LBC and what restrictions are there on the size of the extension you can apply for. we are thinking it would equate to about a 1/4 of the size of the original building. The listed building was a farm and the surrounding buildings including former sheds and granary are now all spate dwelling and have been for at least 5 years.catherinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-74371050761351939532017-10-20T20:28:04.786+01:002017-10-20T20:28:04.786+01:00Hi elvee-I have just fought against my LA for over...Hi elvee-I have just fought against my LA for over a rear and finally got an LDC for permitted development on a property they said was listed / curtilage listed.<br />Our property was not built until AFTER the listing was applied to the main house, and also AFTER 1948, the key date of when listing laws came into effect.<br />When was yours built?<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03070064031693468323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-59868026009081038742017-10-20T20:24:32.406+01:002017-10-20T20:24:32.406+01:00Elvee-
I had to fight against my LA but finally j...Elvee- <br />I had to fight against my LA but finally just got permitted development (LDC) for the extensions on our property. Our property was built AFTER the listing was applied AND after 1948 when listing came into effect and as such CANNOT be listed and/or curtilage listed. <br />When was yours built? <br />My LA were extremely inept and even admitted they didn't understand the relevant laws on this.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03070064031693468323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-25334602439952765792017-10-19T12:12:02.711+01:002017-10-19T12:12:02.711+01:00Regrettably, current pressures on my time prevent ...Regrettably, current pressures on my time prevent my answering Elvee’s query. However, the principles are clear, and have been set out both in this blog and also in my two books (the second of which is due to be published shortly).<br /><br />The question is whether, in <i>functional</i> terms the property now occupied by Elvee was within the curtilage of the listed building in 1954 (see both the <i>Sinclair Lockhart</i> and <i>Egerton</i> cases), and also whether his barn was within a single enclosure with the listed building at that time (see <i>Dyer</i> and the recent <i>Burford</i> case). <br /><br />Whether the proposed development would in any event be acceptable in planning terms is another issue, irrespective of the 'curtilage' issue.Martin H Goodallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07079479984296674469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-91867965806567700892017-10-14T12:52:30.005+01:002017-10-14T12:52:30.005+01:00I live in a barn conversion, one of three which fo...I live in a barn conversion, one of three which formed an agricultural holding. One of the barns is a converted water driven mill which is listed. the remaining two properties are separated from the listed building by fence boundaries and a private access roadway. The listed mill is in fact actually set on a roundabout whitin the access road. The property was listed in 1954 prior to the conversion of all three to domestic dwellings in 1999.<br />We have a summerhouse in the grounds of our property which was converted from a derilect cattle pen in 2007.<br />We now wish to extend this to form a bungalow for a disabled relative to live in.<br />The local authority conservation officer has said that this development is whitin the curtiledge of the listed building and that he could not support the development despite all building materials would be very similar to the stone structure of the existing barns.<br />No mention of "curtiledge listing" was referred to when the summerhouse was converted in 2007 so I cannot understand why any objections are being raised by th LA.<br />Do you have a view on this?Elveenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-62076643299617452022017-04-06T10:43:25.132+01:002017-04-06T10:43:25.132+01:00Referring to Lauren Waterman-Willis’ comment, the ...Referring to Lauren Waterman-Willis’ comment, the applicant for an LDC must prove the facts on which they rely “on the balance of probabilities”, but an honest statement of their knowledge is sufficient, without need of ‘corroborating’ evidence, and should be accepted unless the council has contrary evidence of their own or from others that makes the applicant’s account of the facts less than probable.Martin H Goodallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07079479984296674469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-49447312375282716272017-04-05T22:46:32.332+01:002017-04-05T22:46:32.332+01:00Yes that's how I see it. The original structur...Yes that's how I see it. The original structure was an agrictultural building and the time of the listing. (Therefore Covered by egerton) It was then demolished, without permission and not by us, in the 1970's and rebuilt as a dwelling, this still not curtilage listed. We have been refused planning due to green belt and then refused LDC for PD due to curtilage listing (that wasn't mentioned in the planning refusal) we have now been told to reapply for LDC (and pay again) with evidence to prove its not curtilage listed. That's why I questioned who has the burden of proof. Fed up of applying, paying, and waiting for a negative, ill informed refusal! Thanks for your conmentsAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03070064031693468323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-52441576069705433002017-04-03T11:21:11.005+01:002017-04-03T11:21:11.005+01:00The essential question in relation to the query ra...The essential question in relation to the query raised by X1lol (1 April) is whether the barn that has been converted to a dwelling was really within the curtilage of the nearby listed building in the first place. Was there a functional relationship? (i.e. Was the barn used for the same purposes as the listed building?) If the listed building is/was a farmhouse, then the <i>Egerton</i> case (cited in this blog post, and in previous comments) strongly suggests that it was not within the curtilage of the listed building and is not therefore “curtilage listed”.Martin H Goodallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07079479984296674469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-72812628715595289422017-04-01T18:21:13.846+01:002017-04-01T18:21:13.846+01:00Hi Martin-
Fairly straight forward situation here...Hi Martin- <br />Fairly straight forward situation here - I THINK!<br />We have a barn conversion built in 1976, without planning permission. It was within curtilage of a grade II listed building but was Granted separate dwelling status with an LDC and now has separate deeds. Applied for a few PD's for extension and council have refused saying it is curtilage listed and therefore listed itself. We have a signed letter from the builder of the barn- stating it was built in 1976 (listing applied in 1956) - who has the burden of proof of when a structure was built- us or the council? If no permissions were sought at the time, what evidence is there?!<br />ThanksX1lolnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-71311340567021656822016-11-04T16:52:52.692+00:002016-11-04T16:52:52.692+00:00Section 66 of the Listed Buildings Act is relevant...Section 66 of the Listed Buildings Act is relevant whenever a development proposal is made that would affect the setting of a listed building. The facts cited suggest to me that the setting of this listed building would undoubtedly be affected, and so the Council must pay particular regard to the desirability of protecting the setting of this listed building. The Council’s attention should be drawn to this section of the Act when making any representations in repect of this application.Martin H Goodallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07079479984296674469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-3282492532416692082016-11-01T14:56:39.002+00:002016-11-01T14:56:39.002+00:00Hi Martin
Just found your blog and hope you can he...Hi Martin<br />Just found your blog and hope you can help. My house is Grade II listed ( 500 yrs old) as is my neighbours - we share a boundary. He is applying to build 2 new houses in his garden, 1 of which will be right on the boundary of my house and looking directly into our garden. Is this just a planning issue or does section 66 come into affect? To quote back to you from a previous answer you gave somebody ' Section 66 of the Listed Buildings Act provides that where development affects a listed building or its setting the LPA must have special regard to the desirability of preserving the building or its setting. <br />Can you please point me in the right direction!Modgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04677807264208045485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-25172910491759728282016-09-30T16:03:44.883+01:002016-09-30T16:03:44.883+01:00In response to Kuljit Kahlon’s enquiry (28 Septemb...In response to Kuljit Kahlon’s enquiry (28 September), all one needs to do is to establish whether or not the bungalow in question was already in existence before 1 July 1948. If it really was built after that date (and this really does need to be carefully investigated), then it is not ‘curtilage listed’, by reason of the terms of section 1(5) of the Listed Buildings Act, which applies only to buildings which have formed part of the land <i>since before 1 July 1948</i>.<br /><br />The replacement of the coach house by this bungalow would have required planning permission if it was built after 1 July 1948, and so one would need to research the council’s records to see if a planning permission can be found (possibly around 1960, as Kuljit suggests). Even if the planning permission itself has not been archived (micro-filmed, or later digitised) the planning register should have been preserved, and this might be consulted.<br />Martin H Goodallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07079479984296674469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-13032148440817672562016-09-28T13:52:28.376+01:002016-09-28T13:52:28.376+01:00Hi Martin,
Hope you can help - I am in the proces...Hi Martin,<br /><br />Hope you can help - I am in the process of buying a detached bungalow and the property is classed as curtilage listed building. The property previously was a coach house stables to the Grade 2 listed building which is probably 100 feet away. The bungalow has replaced the coach house and is of a new build however I do not have anything on file to state when it was built. I can assure you that it is most likely around 1960 or later. The brickwork, the roof is all quite new and that a building surveyor also quoted this.<br /><br />The bungalow is now a separate dwelling with fences and walls and has a separate deed and is no longer associated with the Grade 2 listed house. On the council records the 4 year rule has applied and the bungalow was granted certification of a separate dwelling back in the 1980s.<br /><br />Though I can understand the building is in a curtilage area as it is on the same grounds as the Grade 2 listed house but separated. Would the bungalow be classed as curtilage listed to, and have the same restrictions as a grade 2 property?<br /><br />Many thanks,<br />KAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17297581101700068506noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-70870121572784115902016-07-05T10:09:36.369+01:002016-07-05T10:09:36.369+01:00Could I respectfully refer David Brown to my post ...Could I respectfully refer David Brown to my post of Friday 17 June (<i>Comments & Queries</i>). If he would like an answer to his query of 30 June, would he please email me, although this would naturally involve the payment of our professional fees. (We are reassuringly expensive!) Martin H Goodallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07079479984296674469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-16918968016406151042016-05-13T17:08:04.623+01:002016-05-13T17:08:04.623+01:00I have written on this topic at some length elsewh...I have written on this topic at some length elsewhere in this blog - see <i> “Barns near listed farmhouses”</i> posted on Friday, 15 March 2013. The key to the question posed by “New to Listed Buildings” is the High Court judgment in <i>R (Egerton) v. Taunton Deane BC</i> [2008] EWHC 2752 (Admin) which is examined in detail in that article.<br /><br />Bearing in mind that the blog post on which the current query has been posted is about permitted development, it should be borne in mind that PD is excluded if it is <i>within</i> the curtilage of a listed building, and under Part 1 it is not PD if it is <i>outside</i> the curtilage. So ‘heads’ they win, and ‘tails’ you lose!Martin H Goodallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07079479984296674469noreply@blogger.com