tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post427715530419680123..comments2022-12-13T14:45:12.233+00:00Comments on Martin Goodall's Planning Law Blog: Planning Law – the European dimensionMartin H Goodallhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07079479984296674469noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-18769765616727983562016-03-15T16:48:07.442+00:002016-03-15T16:48:07.442+00:00I don't have strong views on whether we should...I don't have strong views on whether we should stay or go, but what really annoys me is the superficial sloganeering on both sides of the argument. This blog post however sets out in the clearest possible terms the real relationship between European and national legislation, in particular that the ECHR has NOTHING to do with the EU. As such it deserves to have a much wider audience than a planning blog attracts.JNHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05965008889368761355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-12501393573799152632016-03-09T14:50:23.983+00:002016-03-09T14:50:23.983+00:00Taking up the point raised by Matt Wardman, I refe...Taking up the point raised by Matt Wardman, I referred to the actual size and cost of the ‘Eurocracy’ in Brussels, as they are so often portrayed (without any justification whatsoever) as a massive, and expensive organisation.<br /><br />To complain about the overall expenditure of the EU is much the same as complaining about the expenditure of our own government (on defence, health, education, welfare, pensions, and various infrastructure projects, among many other things) They collect our taxes, and then they go and SPEND it all, forsooth!<br /><br />Matt’s comment underlines the fact that most of what the member countries contribute to the EU goes out again in grants to the member states to support all sorts of things, including agriculture, and also infrastructure projects in places like Cornwall, West and North Wales and the remoter parts of Scotland. I see little point in arguing about who gets what, and whether we get back less than what we contribute. It is rather like the super-rich, who educate their children at private schools and have private health insurance, objecting to paying taxes to fund the National Health Service and state education.<br /><br />If we leave the EU, much of the money we currently contribute to the EU will have to be spent in future on supporting British agriculture, and on funding infrastructure and regeneration projects, to replace the funding currently disbursed through the EU (although there is a danger that George Osborne may be tempted to hang on to the money, and to deprive the areas that have previously benefited from EU grants). It is either naïve or disingenuous to assert that we can ‘save’ all the money we currently contribute to the EU by leaving it, or even a small proportion of it.<br /><br />I agree with Nicholas Whitsun-Jones that this is probably not the proper forum for this debate, bearing in mind that I usually confine myself fairly strictly in this blog to planning issues, and I only really intended to deal with the European dimension of planning law. So I will now draw a close to this discussion (which will clearly be pursued elsewhere for the next three and half months!)<br />Martin H Goodallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07079479984296674469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-83740425730531399282016-03-09T12:12:15.331+00:002016-03-09T12:12:15.331+00:00Martin
>Incidentally, the total cost of the en...Martin<br /><br />>Incidentally, the total cost of the entire European Commission in Brussels (the so-called ‘Eurocrats’) is no more than the cost of running one of our own County Councils. It pales into insignificance compared with the costs of our own home-grown civil service in Whitehall.<br /><br />That strikes me as a misleading, almost propagandistic, comparison, since the European Commission is only one small part of the EU apparatus, and I suggest the comparison is being made with the entire budget of a County Council, which includes all the cost of delivering the services such as teachers in schools, dustmen etc, rather than just "running costs".<br /><br />I accept that the comparison may not be yours.<br /><br />Taking some numbers, the difference for a fair comparison is 2 orders of magnitude:<br /><br />EU budget including all expenditure on programmes etc for 2015: 145 bn Euro,<br />The cost of "running" the EU institutions is put at 6% = 8.7 bn Euro.<br /><br />Kent County Council total budget 2015-2016: £1.82 bn = 2.36 bn Euro.<br />Kent County Council Management, support services and overheads: £0.092 = £0.12 bn Euro.<br /><br />We can argue about bits and pieces being in or out of each budget, but even if you double one and halve the other the difference is still orders of magnitude.<br /><br />Sources:<br />http://www.kent.gov.uk/about-the-council/finance-and-budget/2015-16-budget<br />http://europa.eu/pol/financ/index_en.htm<br /> Matt Wardmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-58340741550516857632016-03-08T15:26:08.988+00:002016-03-08T15:26:08.988+00:00Thanks Martin. I voted to join the EC back in the...Thanks Martin. I voted to join the EC back in the 70s but I was voting for an economic alliance, not a political union. I have no desire to be part of a federalist structure, which is what it would mean if we followed your line of thought. National identity is important to me. Perhaps that is my age and hopefully none of what you mention will come about in my lifetime even if the vote is to stay in. There we are. I have no desire to prolong debate via your blog as I'm not sure it is the appropriate forum. It is a very good blog and I value your comments on planning law. Always informative and useful.Nicholas Whitsun-Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07465486886924446160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-3671757131518140602016-03-08T15:04:54.888+00:002016-03-08T15:04:54.888+00:00I am grateful to Nicholas Whitsun-Jones for his co...I am grateful to Nicholas Whitsun-Jones for his comments. I have to say that I have no concerns over the concept of ‘ever closer union’. (What are we afraid of?) I think it might be in everyone’s interests in Europe, including ours, to move gradually towards a more cohesive form of organisation - call it a ‘supra-national state’ if you will. In practice, however, whatever the aspirations on the part of some people in Brussels might be, we a very long way from that at present, and it may well remain no more than a distant dream for these visionaries.<br /><br />There is very widespread agreement in Europe that the EU is in need of reform in various ways, and if we remain a member we can influence that process of reform. But we will lose any power to influence what the EU does if we cease to be members, while still being affected by it and even to a large extent governed by its rules (for the reasons I explained in the blog post above).<br /><br />Incidentally, the total cost of the entire European Commission in Brussels (the so-called ‘Eurocrats’) is no more than the cost of running one of our own County Councils. It pales into insignificance compared with the costs of our own home-grown civil service in Whitehall.<br />Martin H Goodallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07079479984296674469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-46973086817693174292016-03-08T11:03:05.778+00:002016-03-08T11:03:05.778+00:00Thanks for this elegantly written piece of writing...Thanks for this elegantly written piece of writingAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11403225900947921026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8170718846507476773.post-60693725668742808832016-03-08T08:30:21.000+00:002016-03-08T08:30:21.000+00:00Well written and well argued, thank you. And I'...Well written and well argued, thank you. And I'm someone who is inclined towards Brexit. Having practised planning & environmental law for most of my 45 years professional career and still doing it for CPRE on a pro bono basis, I am fully supportive of the need for environmental protection e.g. by EIA. But my concerns are over the ever closer union dogma of the EU and the clear desire of many in the EU establishment to see a supranational state. I'm also concerned that the EU seems incapable of reform in so many areas where reform is needed e.g. in the ridiculous spectacle of shuttling between Brussels and Strasbourg at great expense. The jury is still out for me and I have not made up my mind. Much still to read and consider. Thank you again anyway. Nicholas Whitsun-Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07465486886924446160noreply@blogger.com